Is Shooting Craps Illegal
Is Shooting Craps Illegal 5,0/5 657 reviews
- Dice controllers aren’t harassed by casinos to the extent that blackjack card counters are. Furthermore, nothing about controlled shooting is illegal.
- People have played craps on the street for decades. You don’t need a special table at all for this. Just a pair of dice and some folks who understand what the game is all about. Normally when you’re playing street craps, you have some players who are willing to bet on either side of the game.
The only way to beat craps is to know the 'Loop Hole' - enter Dice Control Well, you can't exactly control the dice. I like how the Dice Coach refers to it - Dice Influence. The 'Loop Hole' is the fact that the casino makes money from craps as long as the dice are perfectly random. This is how their mathematicians made their calculations.
Also found in: Thesaurus.| Noun | 1. | crap game - playing craps crap shooting, crapshoot craps - a gambling game played with two dice; a first throw of 7 or 11 wins and a first throw of 2, 3, or 12 loses and a first throw of any other number must be repeated to win before a 7 is thrown, which loses the bet and the dice |
Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2012 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.
crap game
Collins German Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged 7th Edition 2005. © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1980 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1997, 1999, 2004, 2005, 2007
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FrankScoblete
First let me make a distinction between “dice setting” and controlled shooting. A tremendous number of players set the dice this way, that way, some other way. This is nothing more than just setting the dice. Often these “dice setters” will wing the dice down the table where they bounce all over the place after hitting the back wall. Nothing but a random game here.
The dice controller (dice influencer) on the other hand not only sets the dice but takes care with his roll. Here the object isn’t just a dice set but some control of the outcome of a roll. No longer a totally random game in this case.
Can a “dice setter” be thrown out of the casinos? Yes. I’ve never personally seen a plain, old dice setter who does not have a controlled throw bounced (other than for drunkenness or that kind of thing). I’ve never seen a drink spilled on someone who has had hot rolls in order to cool him off, whether that someone is merely a dice setter or a dice controller. Why bother losing beverage money when the “tap on the shoulder” can start the heave-ho-ing? (Note: Alan Mendelson mentioned in a post that he got the “tap” at several Vegas casinos and he had no dice control skill. So he is the exception to my experience.)
Yes, a dice controller can be barred (“Sir, you can play any other game in the casino but you cannot shoot the dice at craps.”) or banned. (“If you come back to this casino in the future you will be arrested for trespassing.”) Although casinos in Vegas, other Nevada venues, Mississippi and in most of the Midwest casinos don’t have to give a reason, they usually do. (“Sir, you are too good for us.”)
Sadly both things have happened to me. In Tunica, in a single week, I was banned from every casino. (I have the full story of this in my book The Virgin Kiss.) I was threatened with arrest if I returned (the banning in Fitzgerald’s was nasty; the banning at the Grand – now Harrah’s – was almost comical – it took eight suits to do it; the banning at Sam’s Town was weird because I hadn’t even started playing) and the pit boss at Gold Strike let me know that no matter what casino I went into I would get the heave-ho. He was right. I went into three more and out I was escorted. They didn’t want my play in Mississippi. This was for craps by the way. Most were “trespassing” offenses (if I came back I would get arrested for trespassing) and a couple were a little scary (although the scariest banning that ever happened to me was in the early 1990s in Vegas).
I know many of you have seen “My Cousin Vinny” and you think it is a comedy. It’s actually a documentary. I do not want to go to jail in Mississippi.
The following year I went down to Tunica to teach a dice control class. We had 40 students. The sheriff’s department came to the non-casino hotel where we were going to hold the class and told me that I would be arrested if I held the class because I would be using “gaming tables” to teach the students on and there was some kind of “Faro” law from the 1800’s that banned gaming tables for private use.
My lawyer said we would win the case hands-down as we had won a case in the early 2000’s where we were also threatened with arrest for teaching how to beat the casinos. (“No one is allowed to teach people the casino games in Mississippi unless you are a dealers’ school.”) We took that case to the Mississippi attorney general who realized it was a “free speech” case and he withdrew the charges. Still, it cost a small fortune to establish “free speech” in Mississippi. This victory allowed other dice control teachers to continue with their classes.
My lawyer also told me that Mississippi would keep bringing up reasons to arrest me even though they would lose every case. His view was that the state was only interested in harassing me by costing me lawyers’ fees. He recommended that we move our classes to Tennessee which we did. I haven’t set foot in Mississippi since, although I am glad that Mississippi has finally passed the 13th Amendment to the Constitution in recent years which was the Amendment that outlawed slavery. (http://www.digtriad.com/news/article/270499/1/Mississippi-Ratifies-13th-Amendment-148-Years-After-Slavery-Abolished)
We hired buses and drove all of our students into Tennessee. As I just said, I haven’t stepped foot in Mississippi since.
My most recent banning for craps was at Bellagio in Las Vegas. The full story of that banning will be in my next book. It was a really nasty banning shared with Jerry “Stickman,” John “Skinny,” and “Not Too Soon.” I mean a really nasty, nasty banning.
Those writers who claim that no one has ever been banned for dice control just haven’t experienced it or don’t know anyone who has been unfortunate enough to be “asked” to leave the casinos or threatened with arrest should they return. Trust me, it is not fun. Trust me, it has happened.
Although Atlantic City cannot technically ban an advantage player, it can make your play a PITA (pain-in-the-ass). One night in 2002 or 2003 (memory fails at the moment), John “Skinny” in front of 10 witnesses was almost physically assaulted by a Pit Boss named Francis at the Claridge. John is an excellent dice controller and had just rolled his 26th number. He is also a BIG bettor, often orange chips. The dice scooted over to the box person’s side of the table, out of the view of Francis who was hovering over the game like a buzzard. Francis leaped over to the table and started yelling at Skinny.
We had about eight other people at the table including Marilyn “the Goddess,” Charlie “Sandtrap,” Jack “the Raging Baritone,” Dominator, Jerry “Stickman” and some others whose names I have forgotten at the moment.
John “Skinny” had indeed hit the back wall with both dice. We all saw that, as did the dealers. But when asked about it, the dealers stayed mum – obviously they didn’t want to contradict their raging boss. Several rolls later, Skinny did miss the back wall. At that point, Francis leapt across the table – and I mean across the table with his whole body – going after Skinny who backed up. If I were writing fiction I’d have had Francis foaming at the mouth during this encounter. He wasn’t foaming, just slobbering and spitting.
Francis said he would take the dice away from Skinny if he missed the back wall again. The floor person and box person helped Francis get off the table. Skinny sevened out a few rolls later and took all his orange chips and colored up. We all colored up.
There was a casino manager at Trump Plaza who also tended to go berserk when we played there – this was probably eight years ago. He’d come down and start threatening to take the dice away if we missed the back wall. For some strange reason, some casino people (and some players) think that is what a dice controller is trying to do – miss the back wall. Not so. Since the throw is geared to hitting the back wall, a back wall miss is probably just a random throw. (I am discounting those few players who can actually do a “kill shot.”) I have information about the back wall in “Cutting Edge Craps.” It isn’t always what it seems.
Maybe the all time record for being barred for craps happened at Bally’s in Vegas when 17 of us – yes 17 of us – playing at two different tables were “asked” to leave in a most disgraceful way. It seems both tables had shooters who were wickedly on fire – happily I was one of them. The casino was losing a lot of money. (Not all dice controllers are small bettors although that is another myth that seems to have circulated.) The suits and security guards came over in force. They stopped the game. They surrounded us.
Since true nastiness reigned during this, one of our players Arman “Pit Boss,” got into a face-to-face shouting match with the casino manager. If Arman had gone totally nuts (he’s a former soccer player and strong as a former soccer player), that casino manager would have been toast. We pulled him away and all 17 of us left the casino.
I am now writing a chapter in a new book about the experiences I have had in the area of ungracious behavior by casinos. I go into detail about such cases.
Why did my bannings happen? I only have myself to blame. I ruined myself in Tunica because I kept going back and back and back for more. I should have lessened the length of my stays, not played at the same casinos time and time again. I didn’t follow my own advice. Same thing happened at Bellagio. Same at Treasure Island. Same at other Vegas casinos. But I’ve also experienced (too many times!), the tap for blackjack as well.
The dice controller (dice influencer) on the other hand not only sets the dice but takes care with his roll. Here the object isn’t just a dice set but some control of the outcome of a roll. No longer a totally random game in this case.
Can a “dice setter” be thrown out of the casinos? Yes. I’ve never personally seen a plain, old dice setter who does not have a controlled throw bounced (other than for drunkenness or that kind of thing). I’ve never seen a drink spilled on someone who has had hot rolls in order to cool him off, whether that someone is merely a dice setter or a dice controller. Why bother losing beverage money when the “tap on the shoulder” can start the heave-ho-ing? (Note: Alan Mendelson mentioned in a post that he got the “tap” at several Vegas casinos and he had no dice control skill. So he is the exception to my experience.)
Yes, a dice controller can be barred (“Sir, you can play any other game in the casino but you cannot shoot the dice at craps.”) or banned. (“If you come back to this casino in the future you will be arrested for trespassing.”) Although casinos in Vegas, other Nevada venues, Mississippi and in most of the Midwest casinos don’t have to give a reason, they usually do. (“Sir, you are too good for us.”)
Sadly both things have happened to me. In Tunica, in a single week, I was banned from every casino. (I have the full story of this in my book The Virgin Kiss.) I was threatened with arrest if I returned (the banning in Fitzgerald’s was nasty; the banning at the Grand – now Harrah’s – was almost comical – it took eight suits to do it; the banning at Sam’s Town was weird because I hadn’t even started playing) and the pit boss at Gold Strike let me know that no matter what casino I went into I would get the heave-ho. He was right. I went into three more and out I was escorted. They didn’t want my play in Mississippi. This was for craps by the way. Most were “trespassing” offenses (if I came back I would get arrested for trespassing) and a couple were a little scary (although the scariest banning that ever happened to me was in the early 1990s in Vegas).
I know many of you have seen “My Cousin Vinny” and you think it is a comedy. It’s actually a documentary. I do not want to go to jail in Mississippi.
The following year I went down to Tunica to teach a dice control class. We had 40 students. The sheriff’s department came to the non-casino hotel where we were going to hold the class and told me that I would be arrested if I held the class because I would be using “gaming tables” to teach the students on and there was some kind of “Faro” law from the 1800’s that banned gaming tables for private use.
My lawyer said we would win the case hands-down as we had won a case in the early 2000’s where we were also threatened with arrest for teaching how to beat the casinos. (“No one is allowed to teach people the casino games in Mississippi unless you are a dealers’ school.”) We took that case to the Mississippi attorney general who realized it was a “free speech” case and he withdrew the charges. Still, it cost a small fortune to establish “free speech” in Mississippi. This victory allowed other dice control teachers to continue with their classes.
My lawyer also told me that Mississippi would keep bringing up reasons to arrest me even though they would lose every case. His view was that the state was only interested in harassing me by costing me lawyers’ fees. He recommended that we move our classes to Tennessee which we did. I haven’t set foot in Mississippi since, although I am glad that Mississippi has finally passed the 13th Amendment to the Constitution in recent years which was the Amendment that outlawed slavery. (http://www.digtriad.com/news/article/270499/1/Mississippi-Ratifies-13th-Amendment-148-Years-After-Slavery-Abolished)
We hired buses and drove all of our students into Tennessee. As I just said, I haven’t stepped foot in Mississippi since.
My most recent banning for craps was at Bellagio in Las Vegas. The full story of that banning will be in my next book. It was a really nasty banning shared with Jerry “Stickman,” John “Skinny,” and “Not Too Soon.” I mean a really nasty, nasty banning.
Those writers who claim that no one has ever been banned for dice control just haven’t experienced it or don’t know anyone who has been unfortunate enough to be “asked” to leave the casinos or threatened with arrest should they return. Trust me, it is not fun. Trust me, it has happened.
Although Atlantic City cannot technically ban an advantage player, it can make your play a PITA (pain-in-the-ass). One night in 2002 or 2003 (memory fails at the moment), John “Skinny” in front of 10 witnesses was almost physically assaulted by a Pit Boss named Francis at the Claridge. John is an excellent dice controller and had just rolled his 26th number. He is also a BIG bettor, often orange chips. The dice scooted over to the box person’s side of the table, out of the view of Francis who was hovering over the game like a buzzard. Francis leaped over to the table and started yelling at Skinny.
We had about eight other people at the table including Marilyn “the Goddess,” Charlie “Sandtrap,” Jack “the Raging Baritone,” Dominator, Jerry “Stickman” and some others whose names I have forgotten at the moment.
John “Skinny” had indeed hit the back wall with both dice. We all saw that, as did the dealers. But when asked about it, the dealers stayed mum – obviously they didn’t want to contradict their raging boss. Several rolls later, Skinny did miss the back wall. At that point, Francis leapt across the table – and I mean across the table with his whole body – going after Skinny who backed up. If I were writing fiction I’d have had Francis foaming at the mouth during this encounter. He wasn’t foaming, just slobbering and spitting.
Francis said he would take the dice away from Skinny if he missed the back wall again. The floor person and box person helped Francis get off the table. Skinny sevened out a few rolls later and took all his orange chips and colored up. We all colored up.
There was a casino manager at Trump Plaza who also tended to go berserk when we played there – this was probably eight years ago. He’d come down and start threatening to take the dice away if we missed the back wall. For some strange reason, some casino people (and some players) think that is what a dice controller is trying to do – miss the back wall. Not so. Since the throw is geared to hitting the back wall, a back wall miss is probably just a random throw. (I am discounting those few players who can actually do a “kill shot.”) I have information about the back wall in “Cutting Edge Craps.” It isn’t always what it seems.
Maybe the all time record for being barred for craps happened at Bally’s in Vegas when 17 of us – yes 17 of us – playing at two different tables were “asked” to leave in a most disgraceful way. It seems both tables had shooters who were wickedly on fire – happily I was one of them. The casino was losing a lot of money. (Not all dice controllers are small bettors although that is another myth that seems to have circulated.) The suits and security guards came over in force. They stopped the game. They surrounded us.
Since true nastiness reigned during this, one of our players Arman “Pit Boss,” got into a face-to-face shouting match with the casino manager. If Arman had gone totally nuts (he’s a former soccer player and strong as a former soccer player), that casino manager would have been toast. We pulled him away and all 17 of us left the casino.
I am now writing a chapter in a new book about the experiences I have had in the area of ungracious behavior by casinos. I go into detail about such cases.
Why did my bannings happen? I only have myself to blame. I ruined myself in Tunica because I kept going back and back and back for more. I should have lessened the length of my stays, not played at the same casinos time and time again. I didn’t follow my own advice. Same thing happened at Bellagio. Same at Treasure Island. Same at other Vegas casinos. But I’ve also experienced (too many times!), the tap for blackjack as well.
EvenBob
If you owned or managed or was a floor person in a casino, would you let you play? Can you blame them
for their treatment of you? You're one of the few
really famous people in the gaming world, you've
written books on how to beat casinos at various games,
and here you are playing at their casinos, rubbing it
in their faces. What would you expect them to do.
What would you do if you were in their place.
You really can't have it all. You can't write books for decades,
have TV shows done about you, become world famous,
and expect casinos to treat you any different than
they do. You're like John Dillinger complaining because
they kick him out the banks he goes into. Being an
unknown is every AP's trump card, most guard it with
great care. As you've just shown, with good reason..
'It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail.' Gore Vidal
midwestgb
Bob, you have it backwards. Respectfully.
Frank and his fellows should as a matter of good business sense be welcomed into each and every casino they visit. Here is why...
Gambling is built on a dream. Just as golfers take to the links dreaming of playing one hole during their round just like Tiger and Jack ('Honey, I birdied no. 14 today!), gamblers visit the gaming tables dreaming of the big score.
Casinos need the Frank Scobletes of the world, making money and writing of their big scores. So the rest of us have something to dream about when we walk through the door.
Frank and his fellows should as a matter of good business sense be welcomed into each and every casino they visit. Here is why...
Gambling is built on a dream. Just as golfers take to the links dreaming of playing one hole during their round just like Tiger and Jack ('Honey, I birdied no. 14 today!), gamblers visit the gaming tables dreaming of the big score.
Casinos need the Frank Scobletes of the world, making money and writing of their big scores. So the rest of us have something to dream about when we walk through the door.
FrankScoblete
Good points EvenBob.
I see it somewhat differently. I used to recommend Tunica as the best place to gamble in the country in the 1990s. I wrote articles for several newspapers and magazines down there. I did a radio show each week. I probably sent them thousands of players. (It was the best place to play in the 1990s on the whole.)
Bellagio is no different. When my team (The Five Horsemen) played there before anyone knew we were there, maybe that would have been a time for them to ask us to leave. However, once word got out that we played there, the place became packed with random rollers looking to play with us, unskilled dice controllers wishing to play with us, and others wondering where all these craps players were coming from. Indeed, we once had over 20 people follow us into the casino from Las Vegas Blvd. The week I was banned from Bellagio, there were easily over a hundred players from GTC or friends of those from GTC who packed the place. I would say most of these players were random rollers; their spouses or significant others were probably playing other games as well.
As a casino manager, if I knew someone could be beat my casino I would do a very simple thing. Does this person bring in more business because he is playing here? If so, let him play. We'll make money even if it isn't off of him. In the case of a couple, one a slot player and one an advantage-player, as a couple do they lose more than they win? If so, let them play.
Sometimes I think the casinos are penny wise and pound foolish.
I see it somewhat differently. I used to recommend Tunica as the best place to gamble in the country in the 1990s. I wrote articles for several newspapers and magazines down there. I did a radio show each week. I probably sent them thousands of players. (It was the best place to play in the 1990s on the whole.)
Bellagio is no different. When my team (The Five Horsemen) played there before anyone knew we were there, maybe that would have been a time for them to ask us to leave. However, once word got out that we played there, the place became packed with random rollers looking to play with us, unskilled dice controllers wishing to play with us, and others wondering where all these craps players were coming from. Indeed, we once had over 20 people follow us into the casino from Las Vegas Blvd. The week I was banned from Bellagio, there were easily over a hundred players from GTC or friends of those from GTC who packed the place. I would say most of these players were random rollers; their spouses or significant others were probably playing other games as well.
As a casino manager, if I knew someone could be beat my casino I would do a very simple thing. Does this person bring in more business because he is playing here? If so, let him play. We'll make money even if it isn't off of him. In the case of a couple, one a slot player and one an advantage-player, as a couple do they lose more than they win? If so, let them play.
Sometimes I think the casinos are penny wise and pound foolish.
Ibeatyouraces
deleted
midwestgb
Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.
Exactly. And probably never will.
But conversely, casinos also generate an aura for themselves by doing bannings. And that aura is, of course, the fact that banning alleged Advantage Players means, after all, that it must be possible to beat a casino.
So, probably, bannings will continue.
AZDuffman
As a casino manager, if I knew someone could be beat my casino I would do a very simple thing. Does this person bring in more business because he is playing here? If so, let him play. We'll make money even if it isn't off of him. In the case of a couple, one a slot player and one an advantage-player, as a couple do they lose more than they win? If so, let them play.
Sometimes I think the casinos are penny wise and pound foolish.
This is hardly limited to casino management. In fact it is universal in management I feel, one of the reasons I no longer care much to get back to mid-level management. Upper-management can say, 'hey the place did great this month!' But mid-level from say floor to box-man can have their bosses point to a winning player and say, 'how did you let that happen?' Since most lower-level managers sooner or later get a job goal of not being hassled they ban the winning player. When the drop is off that falls somewhere else. They can retort that the hold is better. But the bottom line falls. That comes back to upper management.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Ibeatyouraces
deleted
7craps
As a casino manager, if I knew someone could be beat my casino I would do a very simple thing.
FrankS's multi-billion dollar casino opened yesterday in Las Vegas Nevada.You are walking thru your table game pit and notice a quite a few Blackjack dealers really talking a lot with their players
and not really dealing the game while talking.
Watching the Craps action, you notice DIs are taking between 10 to 20 seconds
to roll the dice on average as compared to 1 to 2 seconds for those that do not fuss with the dice
and many of their (DI) rolls are short, not even hitting the back wall with one or both of the dice.
You wonder in your mind as you make it to your million dollar office and sit down,
the less number of hands per hour at BJ and the less number of rolls per hour and higher # of short rolls at Craps
could some how change your bottom line for the worse.
You call one of your bean counters in and have her look into it.
You go to lunch and come back to a report on your desk about the matter.
Just as you thought, those actions cost the casino real $$$ and a lot of it over a years time.
You have a board meeting tomorrow too.
Do you make any changes to the chatty BJ dealers and the DIs at YOUR craps tables??
or
Is Shooting Craps Illegal Play
Do you just let the BJ dealers talk and talk and not deal at a decent pace
and the local DIs still taking a long time to roll the dice with many short rolls still continue??
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
TheWolf713
7 craps and evenbob are right..Is Shooting Craps Illegal Poker
The crowd a person of your noteriety probably brings is not the crowd these casinos are looking for... For example if you are teaching players not to bet on other random rollers, you are packing the tables, yet slowing down their money!!! The words 'school and practice' are automatically time consuming words.. And time is money on their clock.Second, The 'let me win and I'll bring you the losers' pimp roll is played out. These games sell themselves... If they stopped every DI at the front door, the table would still be full. It's easy to think of what you do now, but can you even remember the allure of what got YOU TO THE TABLE?. There will be 'another you' right behind us. Having to learn, take losses, finding a crew, and then getting banned later, too. The cycle never stops
Is Shooting Craps Illegal Game
'I'm a DO'er and you my friend, are a Don'ter' -Mark Walberg pain and Gain